Creating Sales Inertia in Legal AI – Isabel Bathurst, Founder @ Legal AI

Automated Transcript

Alastair Cole 0:03

Hello, and welcome to The Sales Scoop. This is a weekly live show for the founders, and senior leaders of technology businesses who want to accelerate how they sell. I'm Alastair Cole, a computer scientist and ex Software Engineer with two decades experience in sales and marketing, and I'm delighted to say that I'm joined today by Isabel Bathurst.

Isabel Bathurst 0:30

Hello Alastair, good afternoon. Lovely to see you.

Alastair Cole 0:35

Thank you very much for making the time to be with us today. I'm delighted to have you on the show because we've been hearing for many years about the high levels of disruption expected and real in many professions, but yours is the legal one. And you know, as well as being an international injury lawyer and solicit advocate, you know, you are an entrepreneur and a tech business builder. So we're delighted to have you here at that intersection. Before we get into how you created inertia and your sales scoop, maybe you could give us a little bit of a background about you and how, how you got here today, your journey here.

Isabel Bathurst 1:17

Yes, I am a solicitor. I am still practicing. And yes, the background into how legal AI came about, really was my practice as a solicitor, but it goes quite a long way further back than that, because I actually started my interest in computer technology, right? Went the way back. Age 11. I was in the top math set, and we were tested on computers with maths in the math set. And I went on, and I actually did a first degree before law and a job in geography, but was very much involved in geographical information systems at Manchester University, with the first algorithms in geographical information systems and technology computers, when computers first started, before the days of email and so on and so forth. So when I transitioned into law, it was me that was asked to do one of the first case management systems for a mass talk type case about getting on 28 years ago now. So I've always had this underlying interest in all things technology. When it comes to law, we did everything on paper. You know, even right until 2018 I think a lot of the work we did was on paper. So the introduction into technology for lawyers was, I think we were pulled in kicking and screaming, if I would say, but covid changed things. You know, there's a lot of really good technology in the legal sector, and certainly I've mentioned sort of group actions, mass talk. Type cases are where you have large scale discovery. And I think document heavy type work is where technology first intersected into law, and also how we manage our accounts, our client accounts and such like. But I was approached by a software developer to partner and bring a new tool into the legal sector. And I think it was AI that started to really change things. Around November 23 there was a real upsurge in interest in the legal sector, and a real further in looking at what AI can do. And that's where the legal sector has really transformed itself, I think.

Alastair Cole 3:34

So really, you, you kind of had a, you know, you left technology to get into the law, and this is it. This is a homecoming. Then, to a certain degree,

Isabel Bathurst 3:42

one of those stories whereby everything you do throughout your lifetime, you do all of it, and it comes to everything that I've worked on coming together as one. It's all meant to be part of that journey and that experience has come together. So, yes, it's just coming back home, really, back to my computers that I love.

Alastair Cole 4:05

Well, it's almost exactly the same journey for me. You know, I read Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence in the in the early 90s, but obviously that it kind of, you know, it was only in academia, so I'm in the similar boat and and having spent a lot of time professional services, you know, now to be getting back into into the world of technology combined with those two is, is fascinating. So, you know, tell me about how, how did you make that? How did you make the decision, given the traditions that are in law and how long it's been going on, and, you know, maybe some of our audiences like the perceived barriers to taking on innovative new products. How was it at the start, whether those barriers were people open minded? How did it, what was the feeling at the start when you, when you began, all the

Isabel Bathurst 4:52

barriers, none of the open mindedness, and all of the No, we can't have that in law. And I think I. Coming to the present day. AI has been met by lawyers with some Intrepid, some trepidation, with a good reason. You know, it's, it's, it's, what is the AI tool actually doing, and how do we manage it, and what about risk and compliance? But I think that's always been the case in law. I was there when we introduced emails for the first time, and I recall the partner who I worked with at a top 20 international law firm in protest, got a toy dinosaur and put it on the computer that he was never going to open if his life depended upon it. And I think that's a really good illustration of what we're facing now in relation to law and technology, it's just something that stuck with me as a real protest that we're seeing now. And I think, to be fair, the concerns now are for good reason. And I think the introduction of any kind of technology or any disruptive technology, has to be done ethically and responsibly. And I think in law, you need solicitors at the heart of it in order to make that transition. Well,

Alastair Cole 6:06

yeah, I mean, any you know, since the dawn of time, right, since the Luddites, people are always going to push back on the advance of technology. That's natural. This is a different wave, though, you know, I've been through the web and mobile. This is a very different way for it. It's a kind of 10x you know, it's almost like a logarithmic change of what's coming. So

Isabel Bathurst 6:28

we do have to be, it's absolutely seismic, and that's what's so interesting. But what's so interesting is it's led by the generation that we are bringing into the profession, rather than the other way around. And I think it's probably led by the next generation, the ones that haven't yet gone into university and studied. That's the generation that really understands technology and comes to you. You know, I had a work I still take work experience students, and I had a 17 year old with me, and there was a problem in relation to the technology that we were using, and it was a 17 year old that worked out what the issue was, explained, what it was, how to sort it out, and how to deal with it, and that was just three weeks ago. And I think that's just testament to where we are in relation to we've got to meet the next generation that has grown up and understood technology in a way that we don't. I was fortunate in that I grew up with the first computers, saw technology, and computers at university that was a pioneer in relation to some of those changes, saw technology implemented into law firms. I've been a partner implementing our own case management system. And the technology advances over the last 30 years have been incredible, but the last 10, it's shifted up a gear. The last five, something else, something's changed dramatically in a small time frame. And maybe covid has had an influence, I don't know, but I think so. I think I think it has, I think it's, the technology suppliers have seen the legal sector as an area where technology can really make a difference, and it's really changing. There's a lot of new technology in the legal space that is so exciting.

Alastair Cole 8:11

Yeah, I think that that double whammy of covid and, you know, open AI and this new wave almost arriving at the same time is like a double bubble to a certain degree. I'm really keen to get into how you were able to create sales inertia, how you got the meetings, the kind of sales end of it. But before we get in there, you know, you talked about the last 30 years, in the last 10 what's what's happening in the legal space? What changes have you seen in the law as a result of tech, but not necessarily it was a tech in the last, say, 12 months, what have you seen?

Isabel Bathurst 8:41

I think the realization that technology can really make the life of a solicitor much more straightforward, but I think it's actually client LED. I think the clients want to be able to access legal advice and information in a way that's more accessible. And so there's a real challenge between actually accessing the expertise that's both affordable and accessible, but in a way that we communicate using the digital tools available to us, and how we hold and store data and how we transact has changed fundamentally. We don't even realize just how that's happened and how it's happening, but there's been research done, for example, in the States. Think it's marketers. Banks did research relating to silver servers and surface and found out that WhatsApp was a fundamental means of communication between the older generation, which was a somewhat surprising outcome, and I'd like to see that brought more up to date over the last 12 months, to see how we are communicating. And I think the legal sector is starting to use means of communication that it wouldn't have done, certainly two years ago, possibly even 12 months ago. Yeah,

Alastair Cole 9:57

That's interesting, because often it's those. These, those basic, most basic things, like comms, right? If, when communication often leads, because that is a very basic kind of human need, rather than necessarily, you know, kind of legal answers to start with, and that often is a forerunner. I saw a great term that is used, which is that, you know, clients don't want your legal dust, which I think is a great way to describe having, having spent some time with lawyers in my life. You know that obviously the deep, the devil is in the detail, but that that kind of rang true for me, that what you said, what they want, is answers quickly, is that, how far down the road go

Isabel Bathurst 10:35

that sparked a debate already on your list, fantastic. And it's funny how you take something slightly out of context. Clients want the answers, but as lawyers, we've got to give the answer well, which means a lot of explanation. And there's a fine line I think. Think those lawyers that connected with me, the really expert solicitors that connected with me in a specific space, and there's a difference between transactional lawyers and those clients like myself and those that commented that advice specifically with catastrophic injury clients, we we have to give a hell of a lot of information, but our client wants a specific answer, but the specific answer may not be the answer that they want. And I remember being taught that we're in the business of giving advice, not not giving clients what they want to hear. And so there's a fine line. It's either an art form or a science, whichever way you look at it. But I think what I mean by that is that your client wants to cut through what the law is to gain an understanding of what message it is that you're giving to them at any one point in time through a legal transaction or a legal claim. They don't want all the workings out. I think even though sometimes we are legally obliged to give quite a lot of that information anyway, and I think there's a way to give both well to a client and advise them. And I think, you know, sometimes lawyers can be short on advice. And I think one of the comments was about, we don't want a legal essay. No, we don't want a legal essay as clients. We want to know. We want to be guided well by our legal teams, and we understand that we need to be given advice. But the key is in good communication, knowing where to find the extensive legal advice on a platform, for example, but being given a succinct summary may well be a good way forward. And I certainly remember, for example, doing lease work with with really intricate, long leases, and one of the jobs of a junior lawyer was to summarize that for the sale of a number of different leases, and that's a really good example where you've got intricate legal frameworks and definitions and that all the client wants to know is, well, what do I need to know in the work that I do? We have to give a lot of advice, and it's a lot of documents, but really the key is making sure the client understands. And I remember I was only a junior lawyer to an international law firm, and I remember one of my colleagues being congratulated by the partner for an excellent piece of work and advice. And it was lengthy and full of legal knowledge whatsoever, and the client phoned me and said, didn't understand a word of that. Can you explain it to me, which I truly did, and managed to get it across. So I think it's the fine art between giving advice and giving it succinctly. And I think that's where i ai comes in, in the summaries. But you always need the expert lens of a solicitor to properly analyze, analyze what goes on. We like computers in our heads. I think years and years of expert experience that you learn, and I think AI can facilitate our clients to cut through that for us in how we disseminate the information well.

Alastair Cole 13:52

Thank you so, so can I take you back to, you know, you said someone approached, you know, back to the beginning of legal, AI limited. When you started the business, you had that first, you know, idea or or prototype, that first kind of piece of technology you were trying to convince your first trying to get to your first deal, right, your first, your first sale. What talk me through, you know, the challenges you had, or how you managed to do it. How did you get a meeting? How did you convince that person? Convince that person? How did you get that first one over the line? Because they're always the most challenging. How did you create inertia right at the start? Well, I think

Isabel Bathurst 14:30

It's probably helpful to understand what sales inertia is first of all, and it's that tendency to stick with something that's current or that they know without changing or buying something that's disruptive or changes everything historically. And I think there's two things about that, is that it was a bit of serendipity. We were coming to the market at a time when lawyers are starting to look at AI a little bit tentatively, yes, but still with that, you. A tendency to stick with what they know. The difference with what we have is that you don't need to necessarily change, or that you have before the AI can talk to everything from before. You don't have to rip it all out and start again. It can go alongside. It can plug in. And I think that's what's different, is that previously, when we needed to change from one system to another, there was a whole process of migration of data and documents with AI that was not nearly as cumbersome and difficult as it was with previous systems and their transition. And I think one of the things that we've found is that education about what AI is is key to our clients understanding so taking them on that journey of understanding not just what AI is, but knowing it comes from people that understand it from their perspective as solicitors, lawyers, those people working in the Law Firm not just an AI or IT company coming in and telling them, here's how marvelous technology, and we want you to buy it, because it's marvelous and it's good technology, and often is. We're looking at it from the lens of the solicitor, doing the job on the ground, and understanding what works from their perspective.

Alastair Cole 16:18

Yeah, you, and that's where you obviously, with your legal background, and, you know, spending time with the technology and the proposition means that you're much more believable. That first deal, though, right when you know how, what was the role of say, How much did you use proof of concept? Did you have a platform that was ready to go? Was it vaporware? And you were making a promise on the fact that you're ready to kind of build How did that first one arrive? How did you convince somebody when you didn't have any previous clients?

Isabel Bathurst 16:48

Well, it's really interesting, because the software technology company who we have partnered with has already taken what's known as the ever learning intelligent engine to to market in other sectors, they wanted to partner with someone in the legal world, because they didn't know the legal market and could see that it was a much more difficult market for all the reasons that we've already discussed, and wanted to partner with someone who was able to take that to market. So the ever learning intelligent engine is used in other markets, such as digistaff in local government. So we already had other markets with the same tool that we rebranded into a digital legal assistant. And so it was then just a way of explaining how both to lawyers, but also B to B sales in relation to case management companies, how an AI tool can work with their systems and enable them to work in a way that they're in difficulty presently. And it's interesting, I had the opportunity to go into the head offices of Microsoft and speak to a very high level Microsoft architect, engineer with a group of lawyers, accountants and an AI company. And it was interesting, because Microsoft Works very much when you're in Microsoft or in the one hosted environment. And it was me that popped up, because I can kind of do this. I say, Well, hang on a minute. I don't work just in one system. I have Outlook and Microsoft, but I'm jumping between systems all the time. And then the accountants popped up and said, Yes, that's our experience. We were working between different systems, and this was almost a revelation to the Microsoft people, because they didn't really see that we were working across different systems, and that that was a disconnect. And that was a real moment for me, because that's been my paper pain point. I'm logging into different systems constantly. I'm logging into a different case management system. I work between different platforms. You asked me before coming on here, will I get interruptions? No, because I'm on a completely different platform. So it's how we operate as lawyers, is very different to how most other businesses operate. Probably accountants and insurers would have something similar. I think the medical profession is starting to see that with the way they operate on the ground now, with the technology that they're dealing with. I'd be interested to hear from other sectors. But I don't just work in one, one or two systems. I work across about 10 in any one day, and 20 overall.

Alastair Cole 19:20

And that's one of the benefits, as you highlighted earlier, AI, that it can effectively, kind of sit on top of a number of systems, and through APIs and connectors, draw out data from different

Isabel Bathurst 19:30

you can go in and out. That's the difference. It's automatic, Intelligent Automation that actually goes in and out. But that's your biggest fear as a solicitor. Hang on a minute. How do I regulate and stop that? And the difference is, is that we've got a different tool that isn't open AI or generative AI, that you can close on and off, so you can get the systems to talk to one another with your APIs, but you can control and manage what it does, and going out into the internet, into open AI and generative AI. Can be when you choose it to not automatically. And that's the thing, when you're working across different systems, and you're punching in the same information across different criteria, and some of that data is personal data, and that which you have to be GDP, are compliant. You've got to have all the compliance issues, but you want it to talk to one of them, and you don't want to be forever inventing the wheel, which we do daily. And I can't tell you how much administrative time is lost, so I think part of the explanation to our clients was an analysis with advice and going in and talk to them and showing where they're losing inefficiency, by the way of Operation presently, it's actually properly consulting, working with those clients to show lost revenue, lost profitability, lost inefficiency, and where an investment in something disruptive can actually create profitability.

Alastair Cole 21:00

And so it sounds like you were able to open the door because you had a platform that was already working in different domains, but doing exactly the same job. So there's evidence there before you started.

Isabel Bathurst 21:11

Now it's a demo that explains it for the legal sector. So it's actually incapable of showing what it was, but it's tested in other sectors. So that was, that's USP. It wasn't a new tool in itself. It had already been working elsewhere. It's just new for the legal sector, but that's the benefit. You've got the best of both worlds. You've got something that works in other sectors, including banking, but it's new to the legal sector. So all those challenges, concerns, fears, reasons, why not? To buy it can be dealt with head on. Okay, that's a concern. Let's look at it. Let's deal with it. Let we're solicitors. We can do that. We can look at what those concerns are. We work with compliance. I've got senior lawyers on the advisory team that advise and assist on all of that and help deal with those concerns head on.

Alastair Cole 21:57

And so that's because that must have made life slightly easier, but I'm sure you came back up again. I guess plenty of obstacles like what was the most emotionally draining part of trying to sell? You know, such a kind of radical solution to traditional buyers. It's just not being

Isabel Bathurst 22:13

believed. People don't believe you. But I'm reading all those stories about some of the main, um, innovative, disruptive tools that have come in over the generations and started to post about, particularly women in businesses that weren't believed and changed the world. And there's all sorts of transformational technologies over the years that have been brought in. And I just think as well, there's some incredible conferences, talks, discussions, globally on AI that I've had the fortunate experience to become involved as a speaker, to network with directly. I've met personally with the master of the roles. I've met with all sorts of people in the Ministry of Justice and other high level organizations, and so, you know, I'm supported. I'm doing a project on education through one of the law societies, all sorts of support that is not being believed. On the technology side it became less of an issue. It became more than Well, I know how I want to work. I know how this tool can enable how I work, so I've just got to show how that will make a difference, not just but all future lawyers coming into the profession.

Alastair Cole 23:31

Yeah, talking about belief, did you ever doubt that it was going to work? You know,

Isabel Bathurst 23:38

I think I've never had any doubt in the tool or its capability. The doubt is in explaining and persuading just what difference it can make to the whole legal sector. And that's a journey, but that's part of the sales journey, isn't it? That's what every new entrepreneur has faced with it in time immemorial, and it's just having the opportunity to have the forum to keep chipping away. Rome wasn't built in a day, and we are fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, where lawyers are listening. And I think it is a sector that is suddenly coming alive to the need for change in it. And whilst historically resistant to that change, it's now woken up hugely. And I think we're just, we just have to be resolute. I think I am resolute. In fact, the governor of the Florida Bar sent me a book that he'd written as my Christmas present. He's a dear old friend I've worked with on as CO counsel on us cases for quite some time, and all he wrote in the book was Isabel be resolute, and I think that's what's kept me going, as I thought that was sent from across the pond at a time when I needed. Most, and I think that's the key, is just keep on that journey. Now's the time. Yeah,

Alastair Cole 25:07

and how was there a moment when you kind of felt like your inertia had been established? You know? It was there a moment we thought, right, this, is it something clicked or deal closed? What was that moment? How did it feel? I

Isabel Bathurst 25:18

I think it's when we realized that actually, we've got something that was so unique and worthwhile that became important to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and then the momentum started, and I think the tipping point was probably about 12 months ago, in relation to that in particular. And it's, it's, I think the next 12 months is going to be exponential growth, not just for this technology company, but in AI generally. I was at legal tech talk recently, and I think I was on a post podcast, and I listened to that before coming on with you today. One of the things I did say was, over the last 12 months, just how much growth in technology, generally. In the legal sector, there has been how many new companies there are now, a lot of them are in a certain space. But the growth is there. The interest is there. There's a lot of it used. There was a lot of talk. It's a lot of action. 12 months ago, there's a switch from talk, high-level talk, to academic talk. And you mentioned that earlier, when you were speaking to actual action companies putting in place positive uses of AI and other technologies alongside their current infrastructure, and adding it in and showing that actually don't need to change very much at all you add it in. And I think that for lawyers is a real, really exciting prospect, because the thought of not having to actually change anything and just add it in is actually very assuring.

Alastair Cole 26:49

Yeah, change is, is, is scary for, you know, a lot of us, if not all of us. But the truth is that actually we seek it out, right? We, you know, we cross the oceans, we climb them out. It's what we do as humans. It's how we communicate it and and this idea that AI is a is an add on, rather than an alternative, is making life easier for a lot of a lot of

Isabel Bathurst 27:14

platform. It's knowing and understanding what it actually does. And I think we've seen what we've seen by some of the uses of AI where it's been used really badly. I mean, some of the cases that have come before the courts about fake case citations are okay, let's just learn how we use AI, first of all. And I think for law firms that have been tentative, what they've realized is how they use AI Well, and that's an education piece. That's a real understanding of what it can and can't do, but also how it can benefit the day to day practice of a solicitor. What it does is add value without taking away their expertise. What it does that enables them to do their job well, what it does that adds value, efficiency, productivity, and I think those are the parts that are of interest and excitement in the legal sector over the last 12 months in particular. And I think that the interesting thing about sales inertia is that suddenly it's not inertia. It's like we don't need to change anything at all, especially if our systems are up to date, working well and we've got the best of it. We just have this in that's revolutionary,

Alastair Cole 28:22

yeah. Well, thank you so much. It's fascinating to hear what's happening in law, but also the tech platform. Your thoughts on AI, if somebody watching or listening was interested in talking to you about you know, your platform, or how you created sales inertia in a new market. How could they get in touch with

Isabel Bathurst 28:42

you? So just build your website. But there's an enquiries page on there, on www dot legal, ai.it.com and time as well, all inquiries at legal, ai.id it.com and there is a telephone number on the website as well for anyone that wants to just give me a call. We get an appointment time to speak to one of the team. And so yes. And with all the new information, we changed the website because we are adding not just sales to law firms, but B to P B, but we're also launching globally. We'll be launching in Dubai, in the UAE, in September. So lots happening in our sector, in our technology company, and what we're doing going forward. Oh,

Alastair Cole 29:24

Well, it's great to hear, you know, positive news stories and to speak to somebody right at the forefront, the cutting edge, the Cole face of law and AI. So thank you very much for your time today. Isabel, I really appreciate

Isabel Bathurst 29:36

it. Thank you, Alastair. It's been really, really good to talk to you.

Alastair Cole 29:40

Okay, that's all for today. Thanks very much. Goodbye, everybody. You.